Re: this week's New Yorker article "A Church Asunder"
photo: Gonzales: Berlin's finest Canadian Jewish RapperLet me start by saying that the article is terrible, though not at all surprising. The New Yorker, after all, is not exaclty a Christian publication. Here follow some of the reasons why I think the article to be so awful. If you haven't read it, link to it through the comments below (see Tom Becker's comment). I make some initial comments and then assess the main arguments lobbed against the conservative Anglicans by both Griswold and Robinson.
According to the portrait painted by the article, the overwhelming majority of the world's Anglicans are to be completely dismissed because their thinking en masse only reflects the conventions of primitive Nigerian "taboos" (i.e., is not informed by their faith, etc.). Apparently, we "conservatives" stand poised as bigots (the article associates us with words like "frozen" and "amber") who basically still deny the existence of the wheel, and, yes, we are also likened to the Nazis, which is the new classic in argumentatively unfair manipulation. The damaging implications of that single sentence basically tell the whole story.
Furthermore, the contemporary persuasive power of "experience" is used against us in the article from start to finish, portraying Gene Robinson as the victim, and us as the ministers whose experience of contemporary American culture (and reality) is nil at best, and basically Amish. Also, the mention of Griswold's academic credentials, but not my father's equally impressive stats (i.e., Browning, Harvard, Oxford, Tubingen) displays the bias of the article perfectly. And the quoted slogan of the 19th century missionaries, the one about evangelizing "the heathens", is also damaging. Please don't misinterpret this article as being "fair", or even-handed; though it appears to be, it is not! p.s., My hunch is that it was heavily edited and arrived to us readers in a significantly different form from the original submission given by Mr. Boyer, its author.
(assessing the arguments)
You may notice that Griswold suggests that human beings have changed as has their culture around them. Do you really believe this for a second? Imagine what it would be like if you could travel back in time, say, 2000 years or so, to Jerusalem. I suspect that after about twenty minutes of thinking: "wow, this is amazing! It's so different!" you would then see people shopping in markets much in the same way that you see them today, shopping in malls; you would see pub brawls pouring out into the late-night streets, you would see parents caring for their toddlers after an unexpected fall, etc. I guarantee you that the similarities (i.e., the unchanging reality of the human heart), would rise to the fore, and the (surface) differences would underwhelm, to say the least. So forget that, because, like the Beach Boys sing, "Wouldn't it be nice if..." but it isn't.
Do you think that the universality of human nature trumps the reality of cultural divergence? I do. Can you relate to people who don't share your culture? I can. Have you ever seen the ridiculous (though very serious in tone) 80s movie "Ice Man" with Timothy Hutton? There is a scene in it where Timothy Hutton teaches the unfrozen cave man to sing Neil Young's classic "Heart of Gold". For real! And the cave man gets it. The universality of humanity transcends. So Griswold and many revisionists argue that times have significantly changed. I don't buy it; I think they've changed, just not significantly.
But given this simple, oh-so-empirically-verifiable fact, we come to the second key argument made in defense of Gene Robinson's position. He mentions that his sexuality is "not a choice", that it is "who he is". No one on the conservative side is rightly disputing that point. We conservatives are perfectly happy to concede that such is the case, that homosexuals do not have control over the inclinations that control them.
Our disagreement lies in the fact that we don't think that a lack of choice thereby determines how right or wrong a thing actually is. Nobody believes that a murder committed in a drunken black-out is not deserving of judgement because conscious assertion was not part of the offense. To suggest that, to the extent that a person cannot control doing a thing, that thing becomes justified, is ludicrous, right? Have you ever slept through work? Does the fact that you didn't hear your alarm mean that you are, in effect, not actually late? Of course not. Yet that is the argument being put forth here. To not have control over an action is different from that action's being defensably justified. It's as though we conservatives are really just asking the more liberal lobby to make a little more sense. Many conservative Episcopalians had a warmer, more compassionate understanding for the Christian homosexual position until they started being offered such weak, non-Christian arguments.
But human ontology is indefensible ground for any Christianity that believes in Sin. This is the meat and potatos of the Anglican faith espoused in the church's founding articles 9, and 10 of the 39 Articles of Religion, which are the closest thing Anglicans have to a comprehensive statement of our theology. For many of us, we feel as though all dialogue has left the Christian arena the moment humanistic presuppositions are even uttered, for such notions reflect an entire belief system that is founded upon an opposing (i.e., opposite) premise, and Christianity has always believed in sin as naturally occuring inclination. Or has all of that changed too? You see why it's hard to tango, and why the issue at hand has little to do with homosexuality in particular. This is about human nature and whether or not what Christianity has always posited about human nature has suddenly changed in the last 5, 10, or maybe at max 35 years.
In fact, as believers in that classic (and oft misunderstood) Christian doctrine of Sin, we conservatives whole-heartedly embrace the notion that "who we are" (at our core), is wholly determinative of our relationship to God. That relationship is just "off" and not "on", until Jesus enters the picture. This means that most Christians have always traditionally believed that humans are sinful by default (and not just in the context of actions), and it simply refers to the desire we humans have to run the show for ourselves and by ourselves a priori, from in the womb. Such is the nature of a fall from Grace.
Being out of whack with certain ideals does not thereby illegitimize those standards. Far from it; it affirms just how right they are (see also: Romans 7). We can't do the good we know we should do. What dieter can't relate to that statement? The crux of the Protestant read on the human predicament is that we are not free to do that which is right (consequently, we do/ are wrong), and, yet, strangely, we are held responsible for that wrong which we cannot keep from doing, as though we were able not to do it. What a bind! Here enters the significance of Jesus (i.e., as a Savior).
This is what Christians have always believed: "who we are" points away from God, not toward him, and that is why we need to put our faith in Jesus whose inner world was not tinged with inclinations away from his Daddy. "Who's Your Daddy?" says the old hip-hop adage. Jesus knew, and never lost focus, but we are, at best, only ever of a double-mind on the matter of choosing God's ways over our own ways, that is, unless we are given Jesus' credit, which is the thing that makes a Christian a Christian. Our bondage (a.k.a., sin) is that we do exactly that which we want to do. That's the problem.
My hope is that these two points clarify where conservative Christians are coming from: I have said that 1) We do not think humans have changed in any important or fundamental sense since the Bible was written. And 2) we also don't think that "who we are" lines up with the God's intention for us. Never has, never will. That is, of course, unless that Godly intention is found in Christ.
This is also the way in which humanism and Christianity are totally incompatible and irreconcilable. The former says that the Human heart is naturally angled in the direction of that which is right and good. The latter suggests the opposite. You tell me which premise accounts for more of the data you read about in the news paper. It's not necessarily the case that we Christians haven't read Thoreau, Emerson, and Aristotle, it's just that we've rejected what they have to say as being blatantly untrue, given the reality of suffering and selfishness.
(final remarks)
I hope that Christians do not expect the non-believing world to understand their Christian religion better than its adherents. I also hope the fact that the overwhelming majority of believers in the Anglican Communion (i.e., members of that particular blend of Christian religion with which ECUSA considers itself a member) disagree with the more liberal / minority position, will not so easily be dismissed by those people that find themselves looking from the outside-in after reading this week's New Yorker. I mean, would the secular world dare tell Judaism how best to be accurately Jewish? Yet, that is exactly what is happening to ECUSA with this problematic article, and apparently the vast majority of the world's actual, believing Anglicans are allowed no say in the matter,... but this does not come as a surprise.
The divide between pew-thinking and pulpit-thinking in ECUSA is revealing itself as church numbers continue to wain across the board for liberals, though not in the conservative Diocese of SC (peculiarly, or not?). A church radical and a church progressive are not the same thing apparently. I stand for the former and the latter makes me cringe in the way that Diane Keaton cringes in "Annie Hall" when she revisits her young self, first arrived in New York City, telling a flakey actor guy that she completely understands what he means when he says he "wants to be torn apart by wild animals". "Great,...this guy wants to be eaten by squirrels?" comments Woody Allen.
I write this as an Episcopalian Anglican, currently in training for the ministry at Oxford University, where I study with more than 100 like-minded Anglican ordinands. We do not look much like the majority of the Anglican Communion's members; less than 5% of us come from the world's Southern Hemisphere; The New Yorker refuses to account for us.
-- John Zahl
In light of all of this renewed interest in these issues, I encourage you to consider reading a book my father wrote last year with his friend and (liberal) theologian, Ian Douglas. The book is called "Understanding the Windsor Report", and it gives a thorough and helpful look into the current contrasting positions found in PECUSA at the moment. The entire thing was written by email, so it has a very informal, warm immediacy. Plus, in it Dad makes many of his funniest jokes to date. At one (I think) knee-slapping point he even mentions The Marvelettes "Don't Mess With Bill"! Therein one will find a very reasonable traditional Christianity on offer as well as the one with which it disagrees. Please read it, and, for those of you with friends who are not as familiar with the current situation in the Anglican Communion as it relates to Gene Robinson, encourage people to read it as well. Lend them your copy if need be. Despite the dry title, I couldn't put it down!
Here's the Amazon link:
Click Me!

61 Comments:
Great comments John.
E-mail me if you want a copy of the article. There is a link to my e-mail on the top of my blog.
i agree with you wholeheartedly about how we shouldn't expect the secular press to understand our faith. but in my heart of hearts i always expect them to get it, especially when confronted with the actual people involved.
The author seems to be another in a long line of secular journalists to have been taken in by Robinson's nice-guy, anti-theological rhetoric. you gotta hand it to that guy - he sure knows how to "talk the talk"...
I've often heard Griswold say condescending things about the "young churches" in the global South but i was surprised that he let them slip in an interview with the almighty new yorker.
john,
me thinks you're reacting more to the issues involved than to the article itself. which i thought was pretty fair. quite miraculous that they quoted dad at all. perhaps i'm under-reacting?
dz
p.s. what about that amazing final paragraph?
"For Jim Naughton, the communications director for the liberal Diocese of Washington DC, any compromise with principle would have dire consequences for public relations. 'what is the message we push to explain our desire to stay in the Anglican Communion?' he asks. 'what is the slogan we put on our literature? here is what i have come up with: 'join us in a diplomatically intricate, ethically ambiguous and sometimes publically humiliating tightrope walk towards Jesus.' Naughton said, 'i think it needs work.'"
Yeah Dave, I think you're right on both counts. This first sentence of this piece should read:
"Let me start by saying that the article is not that great..." rather than "terrible".
My point was that the subtle negatives sway the entire vibe of the thing, much like a zit on an otherwise good complexion; it stands out though it makes up a small portion of the overall content.
P. Boyer, it's author, is a member of St. Mary's, Scarborough, NY, where we grew up. I sense sympathies, but I also smell the impact that the apparently Christian thinking of Griswold and Robinson will have upon the secular reader that might otherwise find themselves more sympathetic with our rather counter-cultural position.
One note: The issue of the New Yorker in which this article appears has one redeeming feature:
Adam Gobnik's review of the recently published "The Gospel of Judas" on pp 80-81.
Quotes:
The Gospel of Judas "reminds us of the literary strength of the canonic Gospels, exactly for their marriage of the celestial and the commonplace. We want a bit of Hicksville and a bit of Heaven in our sacred texts."
And then, at the end, "Making Judas more human makes Jesus oddly less so, less a man with a divine and horrible burden than one more know-it-all with a nimbus. As metaphor or truth, we're sticking with the old story. Give us that old-time religion--but, to borrow a phrase from St. Augustine, maybe not quite yet."
-AZ
Call me hopelessly naive, but I admit a feeling of great sadness and some anger when I read the first page of the article (I admit I have yet to read it all) in which Boyer discusses Robinson's inability to recite even the entirety of the Nicene Creed when he was at Sewanee. Apparently even that is asking too much of the good Bp of NH. Or did he eventually bring himself to accept even that much? I should say the reason for this is that something in the back of my mind was hoping that Robinson was perhaps actually orthodox outside the matter of sex, but if he can't say the whole Creed...
DZ,
I actually found the article infuriating on numerous counts. I think everyone should actually read the piece within the pages of the New Yorker itself. The cartoon of Robinson as under attack from Akinola and Duncan is appaling--better would have been Robinson and Griswold ripping a model of the the church from the hands of the crucified Christ.
I also encountered the most jaw-droppingly awful statement I have ever known to be uttered by a bishop: "The Episcopal Church over the years has come to, let us say, an understanding of the human person that is more sophisticated, possibly, than the understanding on the part of the Biblical authors." I have no words with which to respond to that sentence. I pity Frank Griswold, who will hear himself say that again before the throne of Christ on the Last Day.
The article does not even mask its intention of depicting Robinson as a tragic hero (miracle baby?) sent by God to reform His church. Duncan, on the other hand, must be suffering from some sort of post-traumatic stress syndrome that has made him incapable of rational leadership.
I have met both of these men and cannot conceive of a more inaccurate picture. Bishop Duncan is warm and grandfatherly, and I will never forget the power and love in his voice as his celebrated the Eucharist at PZ's inauguration.
Robinson, on the other hand, did not strike me as pleasant. He ridiculed a foreign man who asked him to explain Romans 1. When I spoke with him personally, he cut my sentences off repeatedly, allowed his eyes to dart around the room as we spoke, and walked away in the middle of a question, saying he would come back. He did not come back.
I'm preaching to the choir, I know. But still. I'm shocked and awed.
John, much like those poor Negroes in the African church, you obviously haven't had to deal with the scientific discoveries of Copernicus and Einstein.
--Tim "I won't apologize for who I am" Galebach
Hey John. Liked what you said. One qualification though… you write:
**** [Gene Robinson] mentions that his sexuality is "not a choice", that it is "who he is". No one on the conservative side is rightly disputing that point. We conservatives are perfectly happy to concede that such is the case, that homosexuals do not have control over the inclinations that control them.” ****
Well, that’s not 100% so. Not really. What would be truer would be to say: “All the conservatives I John Zahl happen to spend time with – folks like my dad and Fitz Alison and so on – are perfectly happy to concede that.…” If you said that I’d agree with you. Or if you said: “Conservatives should be perfectly happy to concede it (if they truly understood the Gospel and the bondage of man’s will)” then I’d agree with you.
But in fact loads and loads of conservatives out there (read their blogs!) spend tremendous amounts of energy arguing that gay people can’t really be “born a certain way.” That idea bothers them enormously. The reason is that on a profound level most conservatives and most liberals (on this presenting issue) have the same theology: a theology of glory. Sin is conceived of as plural: bad acts chosen by the human’s free will. Most liberals say that homosexuality can’t be sin because it is not chosen. Most conservatives furiously argue that homosexuality cannot be an inborn state because the Bible says it is sin!
C.S. Lewis once observed that, in looking at disputes in ages past, one is often struck not so much by the gulf seperating the two sides, but by the vast amount of unconscious agreement between the two on something else. I wonder whether Forde is right, that if an observer pulled WAY back he would see that in every age there is a Glory Story being told that most people (including those who are sharply fighting each other, e.g. semi-Pelagian conservative Christians and semi-Pelagian Griswoldians) are all part of. And that the true antithesis to this story is the Cross Story.
But don’t get me wrong. I think you are right on target. We in the traditionalist camp should freely concede that gay people don’t choose their samesex feelings. We don’t, but we should. More than that it shouldn’t be a concession drawn out of us with great reluctance – “by no means!” Rather it should be front and center for us – as part of our articulated understanding of how all people are born with sin they can’t control, the wretched appalling pitiable bound human will on which God looked down with compassion.
John, you're right.
I thought that using the word "rightly" in one of the sentences you quoted covered your point, but it was overly subtle. I wrote:
"No one on the conservative side is rightly disputing that point."
reading between the lines: Those conservatives who are disputing that point are in the wrong / not in agreement with me and those who reject free will.
But thanks for the underscoring. Best, and happy easter to you all! JAZ
Wonderful comments! Mr. Dean, I had to read that terrible Griswold line five times before I could actually believe it was for real!
As a side note, oddly, I got involved in a 1 on 1 email converstaion with Jim Naughton (mentioned at the end of the article). At one point he told me that although we wouldnt agree on much, he did think that Paul Zahl was a sincere Christian champion of the underdogs of this world. He made it clear that although they would disagree, he respected the sincerity that he saw in PZ.
John,
I agree w/your assesment and appreciate your insights. This article confirms our status as missionaries to a basically apostate church. It also reminded me of what I thought about the Epicsopal church before I met the Yates/Zahl/Tucker trifecta:)
The article wasn't great. . but the Q&A w/the author was much better. Particularly this section:
Q:But the American Church is not necessarily united behind the idea of gay bishops, is it?
. . . But, in truth, there has been a pronounced divide within the Episcopal Church, particularly lately. The leadership of the main body of the Western Church and the American Church has become, increasingly since the Second World War, the theologically liberal Church. Much the same has happened to many of the mainline denominations—big, old Protestant churches. As they have become more liberal, adventurous, and postmodern in their interpretations of the Bible, their pews have started to empty out. Their congregations get older, grayer, and sparser. And fervently faithful people have tended to leave and join megachurches or more evangelical denominations.
There is a concentrated, focussed, and deliberate plan within the Episcopal Church to reclaim it from the liberals. The people who are undertaking this effort, like Robert Duncan, the Bishop of Pittsburgh, tend to be theologically orthodox. They believe that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, and that Christianity is about sin and redemption. They say that they don’t condemn the homosexual, they condemn the sin, because this is the purpose of the Cross.
Q: The problem with the liberal Church’s embrace of Gene Robinson is that it seems to reject the central tenets of sin and redemption.
So, oddly, any desire to split is secondary, because Gene Robinson and Robert Duncan each want the other in the Church.
A: Exactly. The problem is that Duncan would like Robinson to repent, seek forgiveness, and stop living in sin. And Robinson would like Duncan and his people to recognize that he is who he is—a homosexual—because God made him as such, and that his relationship with his longtime partner is as sacramental as a heterosexual marriage. The fight here mirrors the fight going on in secular culture over gay unions, but the difference is that this is a religion.
Q:
Much of this debate is taking place at the level of bishops and priests. Do you have a sense of how the membership itself is coping?
A:
One of the wonderful things about the Episcopal Church, and about any liturgical church, where you sit and follow a program, is that it is possible for parishioners to go to a church and not know where its politics lie. But in the marketplace of faith it does seem that there’s no contest between the liberal view and the theologically conservative view. The liberal, mainline churches are losing parishioners across the board. The conservative churches are not only growing but growing by leaps and bounds. To me, the reason seems obvious: if you’re shopping for faith, faith is the thing you want, not a watered-down version of a civics lesson. That’s not to say that the evangelical or more orthodox view is just a marketing tool, but people who get up on Sunday morning and say “I think I’ll go to church today” tend to want the genuine article, rather than a speculative “maybe it’s true, maybe it’s not true, we’re all on this journey together” exploration. Because it’s a lot easier, frankly, to stay in bed and get up in time for the first football game.
My favorite part of the article was the way that they highlighted the undergraduate difference of Duncan and Robinson. They both went to Union, but it was their college experience that made the difference. Good old Duncan is a Trinity College, Hartford man and Robinson a Sewanee man. Maybe my Trinity experience was worth something however I am left slightly worried about my wife's Sewanee breeding... maybe I will send a couple dollars to Trinity this year.
on another note: for anyone who goes to the convention in a couple months, this is a perfect preview of what you will see and hear. griswold and robinson are slippery slippery dudes. you hear things that come out of their mouths that are so polished but totally wacked out in terms of their implication and proveability. griswold's quote about human nature is all to predictable. i want to shake him and tell him to give me something new! they all say this- that we are an improving race and getting better and better, more enlighted and peaceful, less hateful and more tolerant!!! and then whatever the orthodox (duncan's crew) say is never heard and always dismissed as a part of the old way of thinking. this is all without mentioning all the buttons that people wear that say, "ask me about Gene."
By the way Jady, I absolutely loved the phrase "the Yates/Zahl/Tucker trifecta." That will keep me cheerful for at least a month.
Hey Billy. I agree that the article was interesting in exploring the formative differences that led the two men (Robinson and Duncan) in such different directions. And I totally agree about the difference in their college experiences.
One thing the TNY piece revealed to me, however, is that a key influence happened before they reached college. And that is that Duncan experienced a real orthodox Christianity in his youth that was NOT fundamentalist, but it sounds like Robinson did not. This is a pattern that happens over and over again. PZ first identified it and in his usual way he describes it as NO EXCEPTIONS! People who convert to Anglicanism as adults, and then go the direction of brazen apostasy, always always always turn out to have been raised with a Christianity that is either harshly legalistic or fundamentalist or both.
Jady and Billy (among many others) have mentioned Griswold as a prime mover in ECUSA's apostasy. Here is a funny and sad post I found on Ken Harmon's site -- it's from a 22nd century Dictionary of Religion -- that indicates how future scholars will view G and ECUSA. My apologies if everybody here has already seen it!
Griswoldians: The Anglican version of a widespread but short-lived heretical movement which swept much of Western Christianity in the late-twentieth and early twenty-first centuries - especially in the economically most privileged nations of Western Europe and North America, where hyper-individualism had reached advanced stages. The Griswoldians took their name from the then-Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, Frank Griswold (1997-2007), who articulated an arcane and highly esoteric doctrine of "pluriform" Truth. Griswold was noted for his unusual preference for quoting 13th century Islamic mystics over more normative Christian sources. Although some scholars profess to see gnostic influences shaping Griswoldian thought, the majority view among scholars today is that the movement ultimately had no coherent theological doctrine at its core. It seems to have been shaped mainly by the shifting moral currents and social values of the surrounding secular culture of late-twentieth-century North America. Ironically, the Griswoldians were noted for their preaching of a radical message of inclusiveness, while simultaneously working tirelessly and with single-minded determination to drive normative orthodox Christians from the fold of the Episcopal Church. Eventually they succeeded in taking over the once venerable Episcopal Church, which they then led out of the global Anglican Communion in an act that they described as "prophetic." The movement was characterized by a remarkable intolerance of anyone unwilling to accept their own understanding of cultural relativism. Proving themselves adept at institutional take-over, the Griswoldians were ultimately unable to inspire much support among the laity. Despite frequent references to "a deeper place" to which Griswold claimed the "Spirit" was leading the Church under his direction, most scholars today are struck by how remarkably shallow the theology of this heterodox movement truly was. This lack of theological depth to Griswoldian thought may well explain why the movement was eventually absorbed into a variety of other contemporary spiritual movements ranging from Wicca to Unitarian Universalism. As cultural values began to shift the Griswoldians were compelled to shift again with them. Eventually the remnants of the movement split among themselves over which tendency within the movement was most inclusive and in tune with current cultural values. Major "thinkers" of this heretical dead end detour within Anglicanism included J.S. Spong, a one-time bishop of the Episcopal Church, who was noted for his "12 Theses," which, among other things, rejected the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Virgin birth, the Resurrection, and all other articles of Nicene Christianity.
Thanks for the "entry" John--I for one hadn't seen it before. The ending seemed particularly relevent.
Robinson, in the article, stated that Akinola had called homosexuals lower than dogs. Does anyone have the source for this, if it's true? And if it's true, has anyone here in the US--ie Duncan--distanced themselves from this kind of thinking? Because clearly Akinola is an ally, but if he's saying things like this, it can cause nothing but trouble for conservatives in the US church.
Dave,
I've never heard that Akinola said this. I was interested, however, in the quotation in which he says that "...even dogs do not do such as thing...".
I think the subtle impression we were suppossed to get is that Robinson's reading of Akinola's assesment is correct.
In fairness, it's pretty easy to extrapolate "lower than dogs" from "even dogs do not do such a thing". That's a pretty inflammatory statement.
The dog probably has a higher anthropology.
Thanks, Dave. I agree wholeheartedly. We need to look at Peter A. with gratitude and compassion (our Nigerian brother has been good to us traditionalists and his flock is in an absolutely terrible situation: the ravages of HIV, competition and indeed lethal threat from Islam, and so on); and yet we need to be able to see him with a gently critical eye too. One of the hugest problems in this debate is the utter unwillingness of people to exercise any kind of loving self-criticism of their own side. The liberal side refuses to engage the fact that many of their colleagues really are apostate -- that many no longer believe in the Creeds -- they claim that this is all rightwing spin. And we on the traditionalist side circle the wagons and suggest that it’s all far left spin to suggest that anyone on our side is actually ever motivated by seething disgust and revulsion (on the contrary, all traditionalists we imply have reached their views by calm deliberation on the Bible).
So thanks to Tim G for being willing to go the extra step and concede that some of Bp. Akinola’s comments do sound dehumanizing to gay people. Here’s what my research has suggested so far: the “lower than dogs” quote is almost certainly not Akinola, but rather a paraphrase of President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe, who in 1993 flamboyantly but infamously branded gay people as "worse than dogs and pigs.” At the same time, to claim that Akinola disagrees with Mugabe is perhaps more than the evidence warrants. The kind of tender gentle “simul iustus” compassionate ministry of the Zahl variety towards gay folks is simply not what one hears coming out of Africa, where many bishops support laws criminalizing the very existence of gay people.
At the same time I can only say that the horrors that our African brothers in Christ experience daily are simply awful. The pressure they are under from Islam – some of it lethal as we all know -- is beyond our imagining, as is the plague of HIV and other diseases, and civil war and corrupt governments and grinding poverty. So while there may be a place for some gentle criticism of where they are, I gotta be honest and say that I can only do that with a huge dose of humility and compassion.
Maybe the right way to do this – the right way to balance tenderness towards our beloved brother Peter A, and “distancing” ourselves from what some people (perhaps wrongly) perceive as a kind of cruel superior loathing of gay people – is to just always make sure we are just as loud about the second half of Lambeth 1998 as we are about the first. You know the part of the resolution that talks of tenderness and compassion towards gay people, and how they are definitely part of the church, and so on. I happen to know that Duncan is in many ways a very sweet gentle guy who does believe all that stuff, and it would be great if we could help him talk that part of himself up. (I loved it in the article when Bob said "I'm not in a fight over sexuality, gracious sakes." That was sweet. I bet Bob really does say "gracious sakes" in everyday speech.)
hey guys -
this isn't going to be as well phrased as I want it to be but something really struck me while reading the article. Robinson says "What most people does not realize is that homosexuality is something that I am, not something that I do." I recently became a Christian and began delving into the Bible more and more seriously and probably the hardest demand I've seen is that when we decide to follow Christ, we have to DIE to who we are. We die and are reborn. That's the audacity and beauty of Christianity.
That says, my heart aches for the growing schism facing our church. I want the Church to be one and I want everyone to feel the growing, life changing love I feel like I'm beginning to experience in Christ. But I think that love comes with belief, by trusting the creeds and the bible (or rather that's how it's come for me).
I wonder, though, while I don't agree with Gene Robinson's interpretations of Christianity, where have I missed the mark? One thing I've taken away f/ this blog is that we are all sinners and I see that more and more in myself. What sins do I not name in my own heart?
I guess all we can say is may God correct our ways where we stray.
Your blog is always thought provoking John!!
Hope all's well -
Tess (Simeon & Bonnie's friend f/ college)
We aimply need to accept that your conservative and my liberal versions of Christianity are entirely different and need to separate./
The sooner the better - I would rather be an atheist than a Christian conservative!
MerseyMike,
I hear you. I really do.
The "conservative" message is not near as bad as you think!
I have great sympathy for homosexuals...and heterosexuals...and metrosexuals....and bisexuals....and asexuals!
I happen to be in the second grouping. What we (conservative Christians) believe is that ALL of these groups are wretched sinners in need of a Savior. That MUST be recognized or it's not Christianity. That is part of the Gospel message.
I'm right in there with the homosexual, bisexual, asexual, etc.
This current argument in the Church is not a matter of sexuality, per se, but a question of whether or not humanity is sinful and needs a Savior (JC).
Peace,
Mike
Hey MerseyMike! For what it's worth, I really think there isn't a single voice amongst "conservative Christianity." The folks I have seen on this website for example are really sweet humble people -- very different from the proud self-righteous gaybashers you may be more familiar with (e.g. Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc. etc.). The Zahl/Burton crowd (have mercy -- I have become a groupie) are really coming at this from a different angle than the Religious Right rhetoric we all hear on TV.
John S.--Good point about Akinola. It's interesting to think about this concept of "forces" both in terms of Nigeria AND the U.S. What are the forces at work here, and how are they influencing us? Quite simply, it's one of 'sexuality is my own business, and don't tell me what I can or can't do.' You can see this in many ways in both the culture at large and then, like rippling waves, in the church itself. Being gay or not is just one part of the whole problem: everything, it seems, becomes a matter of privacy. So the church gives in in many little ways. Like a reflection, we see the same thing perhaps in Nigeria: The Muslims want Sharia law (and we know how harsh that can be) and the Christians, responding to this threat, know they have to hold the line as well and not appear to be completely compromised on certain issues. The question thus becomes: what makes for cultural compromise and what makes for true Biblical stands? Because if there's one thing that's really clear, it's that the culture at large often has very weak legs to stand on when it comes to freedom.
Well, if you wish to mis-construe the basic modern understanding of sexual orientation, open-ended as it is, nobody can stop anybody from clinging to the mistake. But just to be clear: The alternative claim being made, thanks to empirical modern research, boils down to three things at minimum.
First: Careful empirical methods of inquiry can find no defect that is innately caused in humans by having a gay sexual orientation. This startles us, not least because the core traditional prediction of church and clinic and prison was that having a gay sexual orientation always, inevitably, caused a whole range of noticeable human defects. Ooops.
Second: Careful empirical methods of inquiry began to reveal that sexual orientation variances are complex outcomes of biosocial-psychological factors, and this shifted inquiry to ask about sexual orientation in general, not just to keep focusing on homosexuality as problematic. What makes people straight or gay or in between is still mostly unknown, and the subject of ongoing research. While some new biological data strongly suggests one or more biological contributions to what we will eventually recognize as adult sexual orientation phenomena, we also have fairly good indications that historical-cultural social factors play a part - certainly in how such sexual orientation variance is interpreted and institutionalized in any culture. Plus, individual developmental lines also appear to play a part in contributing to a wide spectrum of sexual orientation-linked phenomena. The key shift here is away from homosexuality as some sort of special problem, and towards the larger question of sexual orientation, period. Heterosexual orientations are just as much an empirical mystery as other points on the spectrum. It must also be said that this idea shift is still easily misunderstood by many people who have trouble making the change from thinking of gender and sexual orientation in categorical ways, to thinking of these aspects of human nature as falling along a spectrum of continuum. The continuum model for variance and differentiation fits better with the available empirical facts; but habits die hard, and people still prefer to characterize gender and sexuality by using categories instead of continuums.
Three: Standard, pat repeats of the traditional views are now in question, since none of the traditional models available to any of us predicted in the least that Queer Folks would not be able to be found, either innately defective, or innately incompetent as a human sub-population, owing to their having a non-heterosexual sexual orientation.
Just how much you want to reconsider, following the discoveries of Queer Human Wholeness and Queer Human Competency, apparently will vary widely depending on what else you count on, and how far the rest of your allegiances will serve further purposes of additional inquiry or revision of our received negative approach to sexual orientation.
Facile analogies which conservative believers like to rehearse, between having a variant sexual orientation, and almost every other possibly vexed or horrible thing in human life - simply do not make the case. Repeat those analogies all you wish, but you are not making your case, because you are still not accurately responding to the open-ended state of what we know about these things, now, in the 21st century.
While the shift in all of this among us is still quite mixed and plural, some early trends are potentially discernable.
A first trend might be: The special sin arguments are increasingly difficult to maintain, even inside many conservative religious communities.
This contrasts greatly with the real received Christian tradition of past centuries. Formerly, all Christians heartily knew that Queer Folks caused floods, crop failure, and stillborn cattle. Funny how you don't hear that much any more. That still leaves lots of other bad things which we can try to rehearse as if they are caused by sexual orientation variance, but the burden of empirical proof now tends to press a bit more heavily on the people who make such negative causal assertions, whereas formerly the burden of proof was more or less presumed to lay in great, impossible weight upon the dirty perverts, themselves.
A second tangible trend which seems to stand out, especially if you take the whole real history in calendar sequence is the transmission of fundamental human rights ideas. That historical transmission sequence more or less goes from slaves and indigenous non-white peoples, to women, to gays.
Of course human rights ideas were floating around in various forms, at least since the Renaissance, and again in the Enlightenment Eras, if not otherwise in history.
A particularly crucial period may have been when those basic human rights notions began to be applied in critique of the institutions of slavery, resulting in USA in the active Abolitionist Movements. Next, we get an unexpected and unanticipated civil rights ideas transfer when several prominent women Abolitionists suddenly begin to discern that the things that make slavery unethical and damaging to people, also raise deep questions about their own status and nature and citizenship as women.
Whether anybody would have predicted it or not, the experiences of women in the Abolitionist Movements awakened many women's realizations that they, too, were not getting anywhere near a fair shake in their respective institutions of society. As the womens movements gathered compelling force, it was probably only a matter of time and experience before Queer Folk heard the civil rights beat of the liberation drummer.
We cannot omit consideration in this history of the USA civil rights movement, in which many women, ECUSA believers, and Queer Folks participated. That is one little reason why redactions of ECUSA as involved in neocolonialist aspirations of Empire – via electing a gay bishop who tells the truth about himself, no less - falls so short of being accurate: the huge role that the USA civil rights period played in ECUSA is elided and ignored.
Bayard Rustin as an openly gay African American man played an impactful role as a colleague and confidant of Martin Luther King Jr., though because Rustin was gay and also liked socialist ideas, MLK Jr. was encouraged to distance himself from Rustin. Nevertheless, MLK Jr. insisted on Rustin having a major role in the March on Washington. There are other early black people who figure in the transmission of civil rights ideas inside the Queer Communities, as Keith Boykin surveys, at: http://www.keithboykin.com/author/blksgrm.html.
There is even more that mistaken conservative story lines just happen to omit. For example, in the early gay rights years on the east and maybe also the west coasts USA, people came from Quaker peace and social justice committees to help train Queer Folk in non-violent resistance behaviors. One of the first religious communities to report favorably on Queer Folks was a British Quaker report, Towards A Quaker View Of Sex, published in 1964. D. S. Bailey's 1955 book on homosexuality and the western church must also have been percolating around in the CoE. The Wolfendon Report recommended de-criminalising consenting adult Queer relationships as early as 1957. Wolfendon even recognized that none of the alleged psychiatric evidence for queerness as a deficit in mental health was compelling, just because aside from having a different sexual orientation, people often were otherwise quite psychiatrically competent and productive as people.
So we come to a third possible trend among us these days, the growing recognition that at the very least, if Queer Folks are not defective or incompetent, their basic human rights or equal citizenship rights cannot easily be limited or abridged, just because of their sexual orientation.
This trend may at least begin to be perceptible insofar as few believers these days are clamoring to reinstate the Leviticus death penalty for two gay men or two lesbians – although to be accurate, Leviticus doesn’t actually address two lesbians getting in on in its list of Abominations. We do still hear some voices calling for very harsh treatment of Queer Folks, period. But increasingly those voices are regarded as at minimum overheated, and at worst, completely bonked out on gay bashing juice. The Anglican Church in Nigeria is becoming an exception to this trend; and perhaps the entire worldwide communion will follow. But even if the whole Anglican Communion calls for the death penalty to be reinstated for Queer Folk, other believers in other communities – and who knows, maybe some inside our Anglican churches? – will still probably dissent because of their faith.
So, to recap. The basic claim being made is: In light of this unexpected new evidence – (that Queer Folk as an empirical sub-population of humanity are generally as whole and as competent as anybody else; and that the traditional old claims of sexual orientation variance causing defect or incompetence are roundly disconfirmed) – what are the authoritative grounds for not including Queer Folk as part of decent humanity?
The conservative religious counter-argument for some kind of return to a sort of negative Status Quo basically boils down to one, sole, key claim: As a faithful conservative Christian believer I read the Bible to roundly and unequivocally condemn homosexual sex. Aside from claiming that scripture says two men or two women in love just make God sick at heart – capable of being rehearsed in innumerable vivid words and phrases – we have little else remaining to authoritatively tell us all the old negative Stuff About Queers.
Lots of other negative stuff still gets rehearsed, of course. But all the rest of our traditional objections are already dubious to the extent that these are mainly ways of costuming our fundamentally religious objection, based in our careful negative reading of scripture, in the tattered dress of all the old, familiar, negative stereotypes.
It is going to perhaps be quite tricky to keep asserting the religious negative, while more and more lacking the rest of the traditional negatives which explicated, buttressed, and repeated the religious negative – using legal, cultural, and medical vocabularies. The more the younger generation actually has Queer Folk as real acquaintances, co-workers, friends, and family members – the less gullible we are going to be to repeats of all the disconfirmed, ancillary Stuff About Queers.
This throws us back, increasingly, on our negative reading of scripture: God says, more or less simply: Yuck, you make my heart ache and I will have to burn you forever in hell.
The cultural, historical, and religious community juries are still out, and so we as yet have no clear verdict about whether this fundamental religious objection to Queer Folks will finally win its day. Just try imagining a just society in which Queer Folk as citizens were treated equally, according to their individual wholenesses and according to their individual competencies, with the Anglican Communion still remaining as a place of vigorous condemnation and vilification. What could that condemnation say, deprived of all or most of the old negative lexicon of filth and danger that has been disconfirmed?
We do not yet know if, or to what extent, a solely religious objection to homosexuality – maybe deprived of the old special sin arguments that used to tell us how sexual orientation caused stillborn cattle? – can nevertheless persuade us.
This raises another corollary question, maybe: Is a Christian believer who rehearses all the rest of the old negative lexicon tatamount to a person who is Bearing False Witness? Can your witness against Queer Folk as neighbors still be false, even if you believe everything you are saying with your whole heart and soul and mind?
Our body of empirical knowledge just says: Yes. Believers still have to make up their own minds.
Of course I'm out of my territory here as a liberal Anglican, but a few comments. First, it seems to be a bit of urban folklore about the liberal churches losing members and the evangelical churches gaining. ECUSA actually grew last year but a small percentage, and the very conservative Southern Baptist Convention shrank. Our church, a progressive church with an emphasis on love rather than law, has seen strong continuing growth. We emphasize incarnational theology, acceptance of all God's children, and a witness to power and greed. Like other Christians, we emphasize sin and redemption, but place emphasis not just on scriptural utterances but also on evolving tradition and, of course, human reason. Conservatives focus so much on gay and lesbians - it is so strange and alien to those of us on the other side. We may not agree with you that sexual orientation is a sin per se, but we wonder why there isn't more attention to the sins that made it into the 10 commandments. Second, it was a bit shocking to hear that so many of you at Oxford are on the conservative orthodox side of things, given the great liberal lights that emerged from Oxford in the past. What has happened in England? Where are the women bishops, let alone the gay and lesbian priests? And why are you finding it so hard to practice the Via Media? I sincerely hope that you can look past the passions of the moment, and check that log in your eye first - if you know what I mean. Peace in Jesus to you!
Just an FYI--I made the comment about "forces" in Nigeria and in the US (forgot to add my name). Regarding the previous two posts, I'm not going to attempt a response other than this: if all of us supposedly misguided conservatives in ECUSA really hated gay people, and thought they were "incompetent" as "whole human beings" why would any of us stay in the church? We could all be rushing to the Catholic church, but we're not. (And I write as a layman, so it has nothing to do with pensions...) Is it possible that some of us just feel very divided about the issue, and fear that God will hold us accountable for how we respond, and so we want to do the right thing? You may disagree with this position--and it is far from monolithic among conservatives, I'm sure--but at least keep that in mind.
Hi drdanfee,
Thank you so much for your informative comments! I learned so much from them, and though I think this discussion has digressed from the actual article or John's comments, I hope we are still learning from each other. I found your thoughts about locating the discussion in history especially thought provoking. I have just a few thoughts:
I think the point that John Zahl, John Stamper, and Mike Burton was trying to make was that sexuality is not the issue. Their point is that it is not ok that any of us are who we are, period. It is not ok, in the eyes of God, that we are ontologically sinful: that every aspect of us is tainted by sin. Our biology (male and female sexes, our digestive/ reproductive systems, sicknesses, cancer, obesity, etc.), our sexuality (heterosexual, homosexual, asexual, bisexual), our psychology (affect, cognition, behaviours), our sociology (family structures, monogamy, polygamy, etc.), and our society (democracy, socialism, capitalism, communism, etc.)
In short, _nothing_ about us is ok. Using report cards as analogy: it is not that heterosexuals get B+’s and homosexuals get C’s. It is that everybody has F’s.
Add the Christianity. Most of us here believe that even if one is a Christian, he is still ontologically sinful. A Christian is still holding a report card with a big fat F. Only Jesus makes us ok before the scrutiny of God. We hold our report card with the F to show Father (God), and when he looks at it he sees an A+ because it’s Jesus’ righteousness (Jesus’ A+!) that he sees. That is why we believe that righteousness is imputed (i.e. covers us) because we know that we are still failing desperately and need to be saved. We need a new report card with a grade that we can never get.
The conservative's criticism of ECUSA (as I understand it) is that Gene Robinson et al. do not consider their sexuality as sinful. And conservatives are no better; not many Christians would admit that their heterosexuality is tainted by sin (pornography? Fantasies with your neighbour’s wife/husband or your movie star of choice?). It is not a matter of sexuality; it is a matter of ontology, which precedes sexuality, race, gender. It has nothing to do with whether one chose to be a certain way or not. We were all born holding a report card with a big fat F.
To say that church leaders need to be more sanctified than their followers is heresy (Donatism), so “sanctification” isn’t really the solution. The problem is that no one likes to admit the most important and core aspects of their lives (dispositions, personality, gender, race, sexuality, etc.) are tainted with sin. No one really wants to admit to the reality that we are born with sin whether we like it or not. The problem is not sexuality; the problem is sin. And when we see that as the only problem, we know that the only solution is Jesus Christ. Not straightening up, but giving up.
Sincerely,
Bonnie
Dear Byron,
It is wonderful that your church focuses on love rather than law. How I wish our church here was like that!
But love is really valuable when it is extended to those who are unlovely. Grace is most amazing when it is extended to those who do not deserve it. Unless we face the reality of our unloveliness and our undeservedness, love and grace become cheap grace (as Bonhoeffer puts it).
When sin is just an idea or only ascribed to actions, love and grace becomes relevant only to the idea of sin (i.e. it is superficial and has no real meaning) or only the actions (i.e. love and grace are conditional to the parts of us that need it).
But when sin is about the person--or, put more extremely, _is_ the person, Jesus' death and resurrection _really_ puts to death our sin and raises us again in new life that is real and not just an idea.
Being loving doesn't mean telling someone that their sin is not really so bad. Being loving is telling someone that regardless of whether were, are, and will be bad, they are and will be loved.
Sincerely,
Bonnie
Sincerely,
Bonnie
Amen Bonnie! My newest, and ever, Hero!
WOW, Bonnie! Loved that. It's so nice to see grace working its way out in a real human life. You are so tender and so SWEET. (And so darn smart....GRIN!)
Bonnie -
You write that the problem that conservatives have with homosexuality is the lack of repentance on the part of those who are gay. However, that position undermines your perspective on the bonded will and total depravity. In effect, it seems to me that you make the "work" of repentance of a particular sin tantamount to the reception of grace. I think, then, to have coherence in your world view you have to change your claim to say that the real problem with gay men and women is their anthropology, not their sinfulness. I think this is almost what you're saying, but you don't quite go the last few steps.
What seperates an admittedly gay man or woman who engages in homosexual activity from someone who consistently fails to act charitably? For example, I know many Christians (myself included, on occasion) who refuse to give homeless people they encounter any money, saying that they know the person will just spend the money on booze or drugs. Many of them even lie, claiming they don't have any money on them when they do. They justify their sin - the lack of charity - and thus, in their mind, make it not a sin, or at the very least, a lesser sin. I don't see any difference between that sort of behavior and the sort of behavior of homosexual men and women. They justify their behavior in similar ways (ie. we were born this way, this is what comes naturally, this is what brings me happiness, etc.). We all justify our behaviors, even the those of us with the lowest anthropologies. And Jesus particularly talks about those who fail to act charitably (whatever the justification - ie. Good Samaritan) while he never ever talks about gay people. Just a thought.
Doesn't it simply come down to admitting our general sinfulness? If so, all the sinful people who go to church on Sunday and participate in the corporate confession (gays included!) make the grade, in my mind. If you want to go so far as to assert that only people who loudly and emphatically and intelligently declare that every single act they do is sinful (i.e. confess an exceptionally low anthropology) are saved (or at least worthy of being a bishop), then there are a lot of us (myself included) going to hell. Do you want to go that far? I think that "if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom 10:9). I don't see anything about "anyone who confesses to a low anthropology and upholds the theology of the cross" but perhaps I simply have a flawed hermeneutic ;)
I'm not Anglican so I don't have much stake in the vast majority of the substance of this discussion. I do, however, care deeply about anthropology and soteriology, so as soon as you went there, I had to chime in.
Mattie
P.S. - I assumed for that post that I think homosexual activity is a sin. I'm not sure if I feel that way. I have too many gay friends who have experienced freedom (in Christ, it seems) by coming out of the closet and entering into committed relationships.
Hi Mattie,
Interesting and thoughtful points, as always. I do think that you have misconstrued what Bonnie is saying here, however, in part because, not living in the ECUSA world, you are not as familiar with the actual arguments being raised to defend the liberal position. Let me see if I can help clarify:
First off, no one is saying that unrepentant gay Christians are therefore necessarily not saved-- at least no one on this blog, that I know of. Of course, we never truly know, and we are told not to judge about those kinds of things and so on. The topic under discussion is not, first and foremost, a soteriological issue. Rather, it is a question of, well, heresy, specifically in terms of a repudiation of Original Sin. Given that we're all heretics in at least some regard, I would hope that 100% orthodoxy would not be the requirement for getting into heaven, or we're all pretty much screwed :) But that is not to say that orthodoxy is anything but a very good thing! So the soteriological question that you raise is not really the primary issue here, and it is always dangerous to get into clear-cut so-and-so-is-definitely-saved-and-so-and-so-is-not categories, as I'm sure you agree.
The point that John made in his original post is that the issue here is NOT first and foremost an issue of ethics. It is instead an issue of very bad doctrine on a central doctrinal issue. THE PROBLEM IS LESS ABOUT THE SPECIFICS OF GAY RELATIONSHIPS THAN ABOUT THE _THEOLOGICAL ARGUMENTS_ THAT ARE BEING USED TO DEFEND THE LIBERAL POSITION.
Specifically, the arguments put forward by Gene Robinson and Frank Griswold in the New Yorker article are two: 1) that if I have been made/ born a certain way, it is therefore a priori good and affirmed by God, and 2) that there exists some form of special revelation immanent in history that, when there is conflict, overrides the witness of the Bible-- specifically, that human nature changes and progresses in fundamental ways over time, including in ways that can contradict the Bible, as well as church tradition.
Argument 1), as John pointed out, is completely incompatible with a doctrine of Original Sin-- a doctrine that is, for instance, very clearly articulated in the Anglican 39 Articles of Religion. It is a humanist, rather than Christian, argument, more in line with Thoreau and Emerson than with the Bible. To throw out Original Sin is a very serious doctrinal error, and calls into question why Jesus needed to die in the first place (for instance, why the Old Covenant was so inadequate as to require the death of God himself to save us, much less why we need a covenant with God at all). Adam and Eve may have been able to argue something along those lines (maybe), but we, in the post-Fall, Original Sin phase of things, cannot.
Argument 2) is nearly as problematic. If it is true, then we very quickly come to the question of why the Bible is necessary anymore in the first place, why not relegate it to the status of an "historical document of the church" (a la the 39 Articles in the new prayer book..) instead of the living Word of God? If, on the other hand, one argues something more along Catholic lines for an ongoing revelation to the Church in certain circumstances, then the argument still doesn't fly, because the homosexuality issue still hasn't met anything like the necessary criteria (you may not know that the view of the larger Anglican Communion and the majority of bishops is very clear, for instance at the last Lambeth Conference of bishops, etc.).
What I'm saying is that, far more serious than the ethical question of monogamous committed Christian gay relationships, are the arguments that are being put forth by the liberal side to justify their position. We are dealing with nothing less than a repudiation of Original Sin which, followed to its logical conclusion, calls Christology itself into question; and a bizarre and convenient doctrine of special revelation that claims the truth for itself even though it defies Bible, tradition, and the contemporary opinion of the Church as a whole.
Additionally, your analogy about how uncharitable Christians are on a day-to-day basis, for instance to homeless people (and you are dead right about the uncharitability), is not a fair one. The difference between what Robinson and Griswold are arguing and the charitability point is that no Christian, no matter how uncharitable, is trying to claim that they have a special revelation from God that He has now decreed that it is perfectly ok to be uncharitable, or that they were made uncharitable in their mother's womb and that it is therefore a perfectly reasonable inclination, and that those who say otherwise are bigots. There is a MASSIVE difference between continuing in sin and proclaiming that sin is not sin after all.
This brings us to what Bonnie was getting at. Again, there is a gigantic difference between saying that specific repentance of a specific sin is necessary in every case for a person to be saved (which Bonnie and I are not necessarily saying-- again, who is saved and who is not is dangerous territory), and saying that one _should not_ repent of a given sin, that it is in fact not sin at all.
And it is very dangerous to say that we must repent only for a "general" sense of sin, as if the general and the specific were divorced, as if every specific sin is not a concrete manifestation of our sin-tinctured ontology. In terms of sin, to divorce the general and the specific (the ontological and the actual, in theological language) is essentially to say that the specific or actual doesn't matter, and is not sin at all. So we are NOT NOT NOT advocating a Pat Roberston-type position that certain sins matter more than others in terms of their effect on our salvation-- God forbid!-- but neither are we saying that specific sins don't matter at all, to the point of not really being sins anyway, which is the logical conclusion, I think, of what you were advocating.
Bonnie is saying that where we make those kinds of divisions, we have missed the depth of the problem of sin, and that is something we never ever want to do, because it is in the Truth of the problem that God's grace enters in, no matter what the specific manifestation of the problem may be.
Really, we are arguing FOR God's GRACE for SINNERS-- of whom I am the foremost! But if the sinner doesn't acknowledge the sin, and has repudiated Original Sin, grace is, in a sense, endangered. In this case, the role of the pastor or theologian is to shine the spotlight on the sin (what I would call the Second Use of the Law)-- humbly, and with a FULL sense of being himself equally implicated under the Law-- not to ignore it or pretend it is anything other than what it is.
I hope that clarifies the issue in the Anglican Communion for you somewhat, Mattie. The main point is that far more than ethics is at stake, precisely because of the very problematic arguments being raised by the liberal side.
If the arguments were better, I for one would be far more open to reconsidering the case on the ethical issue.
PS- And let me say that I do not necessarily speak for anyone other than myself, including my family, though I do think what I have said is what follows from what John originally wrote.
Simeon speaks for me
And, quite eloquently, for me.
Simeon -
Thanks so much! That makes it much more clear to me. (Well that, and actually finally finding a link to the original article :))
However, it seems to me that calling someone heretical must inevitably have soteriological consequences. Otherwise, why worry about it? It seems to me that the church has an obligation to preserve doctrinal purity primarily, if not exclusively, in order to promote the salvation of its members, not for the sake of unity or consistency alone. Do you disagree? While there may be some lesser reasons to call out heresies (perhaps for the ability to evangelize effectively), the salvific component seems to me to the primary. That's the tact I was taking, though I didn't make myself clear.
A couple of questions:
1) You mention the 39 articles in the "new" prayer book. Where can I find this "new" prayer book and exactly how "new" is it? Are the 39 articles in it substantively different from the initial articles?
2) Do you agree with the assertion made in the New Yorker that the Anglican communion and "the prayer book allowed for the coexistence within one institution of distinctly different interpretations of Christianity?"
3) It seems that "conservatives" take strong issue Robinson saying that human love mirrors God's love and that with his partner he experiences being loved and loving. Does your understanding of original sin undermine such communion and sacrament in heterosexual marriage? I know this is a loaded and personal question, and if you don't want to answer it on the blog, I understand. But are you saying that we are so completely depraved that marriage is simply an institution built to constrain the "sin" of sexuality? Or do you see a positive role (not necessarily salvific, but at least a conduit for the sanctification of the Holy Spirit) for human love and sexuality? I think the anthropological question at the core of my query is obvious...
Anyway, Sim, I have nearly finished "On Being a Theologian of the Cross" and since my class and internship ended this week I'm (finally) hoping to write some remarks for you over the weekend.
Mattie
Dear Mattie,
Simeon is watching Battlestar Gallactica with Kevin "T-Rex" Taylor and is indispensible for the next few hours.
Concerning your thoughts about heresy and soteriology...I don't know much about either, but I think the Bible is very clear about Salvation: "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9); "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13). You're right; there's nothing about sexuality in there in relation to salvation.
BUT the problem isn't about salvation; the problem is the advocacy of Original Sin by saying that "Because I am born [insert condition], that makes it natural, approved by God, and not sinful." I bracketed the condition because it could as easily be "Because I am born Chinese, that particular part of me is not sinful" or "Because I am born with genetic predisposition to depression, that particular part of me is not sinful." It's the second half of each of those sentences that we have a problem with!
Hurrah to finishing school and internship. Love you!
Bonnie
Since it seems the discussion has turned to salvific issues....
I think it suffices to say that Salvation is purely a heart matter.
That being said, speculation on who is saved by judging their behavior, I agree, Simeon, is dangerous ground on which to tread.
The passage in Romans which has been quoted several times is right on target.
Also, Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of God."
Makes it pretty tough to judge. That's a good thing I think.
Hooray for Battlestar Gallactica!!
those of you who know, know. And those that don't...watch it!
Mattie, please, if you are willing, share your thoughts on On Being a Theologian...on the blog. I would love to read your thoughts,
Another amazing post. Thanks so much, Simeon.
By the way, Mattie, thanks much to you for the thoughtful and gentle tone of your post. Golly I sure do love civility and graciousness (which seems to be the way of JZ’s blog). Nice too for me to see a Catholic writing a lot in this forum, especially one who gets nervous when she thinks she starts hearing a theology of works! Woohoo!
I have a few quick thoughts. They are ideas implicit in what these other folks have been saying, so I am not pretending to add anything exactly new here; and sometimes they are things that have been explicitly said! But as this debate has played out across the Episcopal church over the last 3 years I have seen the following two points consistently misunderstood – as in almost always! – so I feel they are worth saying clearly over and over again, just to “frame” the debate.
My first point is that the conflict is in one sense ecclesial rather than theological. After all, it erupted after an ecclesial act, right? General Convention 2003? Now I want to be very careful and clear what I mean here. I don’t mean this distinction the way some people do – that theology doesn’t matter and the only issue is figuring out issues of canon law or how we can work out a practical method of agreeing to disagree. That’s not what I mean. What I mean is that when it comes to the question of Bob and Joe, two Anglican men in a committed monogamous gay relationship, there are two issues involved:
(A) How should the church deal with them in a private pastoral context?
(B) Should the church marry them in a public ceremony?
Everyone knows that (A), because it is pastoral, is a complex issue that “local option” is ideally suited for. If you listen carefully to even “archconservative” Bob Duncan’s own comments in the TNY piece about his past work, you get a real sense of how he didn’t barge in with some agenda about turning his gay people straight. It’s really true that “fixing” them wasn’t his primary concern, but rather helping them come to hear the Word of grace and forgiveness in the blood of our Lord Jesus, with a full awareness on his part that their gay relationships might continue possibly after that and that the future, their individual future and his future Christian walk with them, would be a wonderful mystery veiled by the secret counsel of God.
But (B) is very different! It asks whether there should be a formal change in church doctrine. It’s an ecclesial act. And at GC 2003 there were two actions taken: one that explicitly gave a green light to dioceses wishing to marry gay people, a resolution that explicitly said that such ceremonies were within the bounds of our common doctrinal life; and the other did the same thing by implicitly extending the concept of holy marriage to cover the relationship of Gene and his partner. The two actions formally changed church teaching.
So my first key point is that the ECUSA traditionalists have been largely open to great latitude in how rectors approach gay folks in their parishes as individuals. The problem has happened, not because rectors (many of them traditionalist!) are being loving and compassionate and accepting of gay people in their congregations, not because these rectors are joyfully involving gay folks in parish life without demands for legalistic change, but because a movement in the church has been demanding that actual church teaching be changed regarding God’s ideal for human sexuality; and that this movement was finally successful at GC 2003.
That’s my first point. I would add to it that I agree deeply with the Zahl boys and Bonnie and Mike B and all the rest of the gang here: that for many of us, what disturbed us theologically most in the last four years was not the change per se regarding sexual ethics, which is a good thing to talk about and upon which it perhaps might be possible to genuinely have multiple opinions, but the much deeper misunderstandings of the human condition and of the Gospel that the arguments of the reappraisers betrayed. That’s what is most worrisome to the folks here (plus people like Paul Zahl and Fitz Alison and others) – not the question of sexual or marriage ethics itself (though it is of course important).
But talking about “the rest of the gang here” leads me to my second point. And that is that the “conservatives” on this issue in the Anglican Church (or “traditionalists” or whatever other label you might use), are very multiform! They are coming to the same position (we oppose the actions at GC 2003) for lots of different reasons. Something I see so often outside of this website is the assumption that these people are all the same. It ain’t so. There are Unionists (people chiefly upset by ECUSA’s willingness to tear the church apart knowingly in 2003), there are people who are disturbed first and foremost by the arguments made in defense of GC 2003 (see Bonnie and Simeon and JZ and Mike B and Co. above), there are people who view the issue of human sexuality as paramount (but who are still very sweet to gay fellow parishioners and willing to give them space to be sinners), there are people who find the idea of gay relationships disgusting and think such people are wicked who must be fixed before they can have a saving relationship with Christ; and there are people in more than one category. Theologically I would also suggest that there is tremendous diversity amongst conservatives in one huge area of interlocking concerns: the extent to which the human will is bound, the problem of sin in the regenerate, the meaning of repentence, a possible “third use” of the Law for Christian life, and church discipline as a possible “third mark” of the church.
To sum up, those two points on my end are important to keep in mind constantly when we talk about this stuff. First, that ECUSA traditionalists are largely fine with gay people being in the church. They are fine with that and with being loving and welcoming to them. No strings, no “you gotta be celibate before we’ll love you.” No claims that Bob and Joe can’t go to heaven. What has upset them is changing official church teaching, either about human sexuality or about deeper issues regarding sin and our need for a savior (paging Simeon). And the second thing to keep in mind, is that there is no such animal as THE traditionalist or conservative view (something you Mattie haven’t suggested, but which is the default assumption in the press and which is easy for anybody to slip into). Conservatives are coming at this from a LOT of different angles.
Both of these things are probably already clear to you – just thought they were worth saying. Thanks again!
Dear Mattie,
The "new" Prayer Book came out in 1979. It is almost universally considered by theological conservatives to be inferior to the 1928 Prayer Book for multiple reasons.
Supposedly, the 1979 Prayer Book merely updated the language of the services in effort to be more (what we today would call) "seek-friendly."
I reality, significant theological modifications were snuck in. For instance:
1) A note was made that the confession before communion might be occasionally omitted. As a result, very rarely do theologically "liberal" congregations use the confession at all, at least in my experience.
2) The confession that was written for the new service focuses less on the sinful nature of human beings, and more on the the sinfulness of their actions. Sin is thought of less as "rebellion" and more as "forgetting." Further, what I consider to be one of the most important (and Protestant) lines in the 1928 confession--"There is no health in us"--was omitted outright from both the traditional Rite I liturgy and the more "contemporary" Rite II.
3) The Prayer of Humble Access is removed from the Rite II liturgy.
4) The Rite II liturgy takes on a more sacrificial character. (a) The Holy Spirit is invoked at the epiklesis to consubstantiate the elements, (b) The Father is asked to accept the sacrifice offered Him (contrary to the original English Prayer Book, wherein Cranmer asked God to accepted the worship only insofar as worship was our bounden duty. He further asked that God weigh not our offences but only the merits of Jesus Christ. All vanished from the new service). Most problematic, in my opinion, are the words spoken at the administration of the elements. No longer is the formula of Concord--the most perfect Eucharistic explanation possible--spoken. Before 1979, everyone who received Communion at a Protestant Episcopal Church altar heard these words: "The body of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which was broken for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. Take and eat this in rememberance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him thy heart with thanksgiving. The blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which was poured out for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. Drink this in rememberance that Christ's blood was shed for thee, and be thankful." The precise relationship between the elements and Jesus is left ambiguous, in order that the relationship between Jesus and the kneeling sinner might be emphasized. Now we are told "The Body of Christ. The bread of Heaven. The Blood of Christ. The cup of Salvation." In no way is the important of the "Of ME for YOU" relationship explicated. We are merely confronted with verities which must revere.
Your opinion about any of these things might differ from mine because a conscious effort to move slightly in the direction of Catholic ceremony (though not necessarily faith!) was a guiding rationale in 1979.
That's just in the language of the Great Thanksgiving, though. Perhaps a more damning chance is what Simeon mentioned about the 39 Articles.
The Lutherans have the Augsburg Confession, and the Calvinist have the Westminster. The Anglicans never drafted a "confession" because they believed so doing would overshadow the importance of the historic creeds. Rather, Thomas Cranmer composed a list of 39 principles for theology. The statements are general enough to be comfortable for most Christians (except Roman Catholic, I'm afraid, who are specifically denounced). Cranmer's explanations are wonderful.
For instance, regarding Predestination, he writes that the Bible offers incontrovertible proof that God initiates and completes salvation. He adds, however, that we're never going to figure out how God does this, so we needn't waste our time agonizing over it.
Regarding the communion, he says that Christ is present because Christ said that he would be present. Explaining precisely how he would be present was not important to Christ, so it should not be thought of as important to Christians.
Regarding Free Will, he says precisely what Luther said during the Heidelberg Disputation: we are bound to sin and are unable to turn to God unless God turns us himself.
One of my favorites is the 6th Article, from whence we have the words, "Holy Scripture containth all things necessary to salvation." That is, perhaps, the statement most classically linking Protestants to one another.
The Articles also point to a series of sermons called "The Homilies," wherein the "True, Lively, and Christian Faith" is recommended.
In England (and most of the world!) the 39 Articles are still considered binding. Here, however, they are historical relics of the Anglican fight with Rome. They've not been changed--simply ignored! Tragedy!
Frankly, the more I read about Cranmer, the more I love the guy. He understood the Gospel, both the love of God and the needs of man, and attempted to oversee the transition of religion in England in such a way as would keep these important truths at the fore.
What a shame that human sin has cast them aside.
Dear John Stamper et al.,
I agree with the majority of what you have written.
I do, however, have a question for the group at large. Perhaps this is my Holiness Nazarene upbringing shining through, but I simply cannot fathom condoning sins.
I know that (some) Protestants believe the Law exists to point out sin, not to regulate conduct.
Maybe I've internalized too much evangelical rhetoric about "sexual purity," but, if I'm a minister and two men in my congregation are living together, how do I condone that? Or even a man or a woman for that matter?
I too cringe when someone says, "We need to speak a little Truth with our Grace" (i.e., Here comes some condemnation for you from my flesh). Not having a sacramental clergy also means that no one is "above" anyone else in a Protestant Church, so no one has the responsibility of confronting someone with his sin.
PZ preached a powerful sermon once when I worked in Birmingham. He argued that the less effective way of combatting sin is confrontation. Instead, we should pray for a Nathan to come and speak Truth from a decontextualized place. Otherwise, projection and transference will merely intensify the sin.
I get all that.
I want to know, though, the question that I've been nagging folks about since I got here. "How then do we live?"
I don't think I am entirely convinced that the third use of the law is "a teaching so false as to border on stupidity."
Jeff,
Your comment on "condoning sin" reminded me of something I read recently in an article on the Modern Reformation website.
I'm paraphrasing.... but basically a Pastor was asked if his hardline on Grace wasn't giving people a "license to sin". His reply - "I didn't know they needed a license."
I really don't think that anyone here "condone's" sin. But no one here is foolish enough to think that Christians won't! What's the old saying?
"If I'm breathing, I'm sinning."
Now, sin as a forgone conclusion, requires a response. Grace (forgiveness) or the Law (condemnation).
Only one of these has any power to affect real change.
Mike
I just told my 5-year old sister: "I can't change who I am."
Her: "Yes you can. And you must!"
(This was in the context of me eating candy sprinkles directly from the container)
Jeff, if I tell you how now you should live, will that finally get you to stop asking the question?
Great stuff, both John and Jeff. Jeff, you are the best spokesman for Anglicanism I know. How could I not love Cranmer after reading what you wrote? You will make a wonderful minister, and Anglicanism is fortunate to have you!
(PS - Bonnie and I are sitting side by side right now in our little flat in Cambridge, typing away on our Macs (hers is cooler), both posting simultaneously on John Camp, and I am profoundly happy. Does that help answer your question at all, Mattie?)
Dear Jeff,
You ask a great question re: third use of the law. I think when a person is at a point where he or she is genuinely asking that question (i.e. the spirit is doing the initiating!) then the law is helpful. Simeon and I used to disagree on this one because there was a time when I really, truly, with my whole heart agreed with Psalm 119 (the one that says "I delight in your law.") Simeon said he had never felt like he delighted in God's law, at least not consciously ("Wow, God's law is so great right now!"), whereas my background has been the more explicit "See how you are living in freedom? It's because you're living under God's law!" True, descriptively, but never prescriptively.
I would say that when someone is really craving a healthy dose of 3rd use of the law (in the good sense), give it. Encourage them! But trust me, before too long they will fail. I don't think God lets us have too long of a stretch of so-called spiritual healthiness (i.e. always in tune with the Spirit, always doing the right thing.) We always need to be reminded of grace, and grace doesn't mean as much when we're doing well. It always means more when we're not, and if we're saved _and_ changed by grace, then that is clearly more important in the long run! I do agree that one needs to discern when to give the 3rd use of the law - and I would say NEVER in preaching. I can see it being helpful in a small group or discipleship setting.
As for your question about what to say to homosexuals living together before marriage: I thought the folks who handled my cousin's situation did it really well. No, she's not a lesbian, but she had been divorced twice. Truly a miracle and by the grace of God she was saved. She and her then boyfriend were living together, so the pastor counselled them to be married, spend some time apart before the wedding, etc. They got married. Now she's pregnant (amazing - she was totally in the "never get pregnant" camp). I know the situation is very different for homosexuals, and I see no great answer to your question, but I suppose if the message of Original Sin and the Gospel of unconditional love was really speaking to them, then I would suggest perhaps they could live apart for a while (and perhaps for longer than a while). Since I can't condone homosexual marriage, I can't tell them to get married, so I think seeing that they have some space might be helpful.
I'm totally willing to be corrected though, especially by those who have more pastoral experiences!
Hello Jeff (and Tim G and Bonnie and Mike B and everyone)! Thanks to everyone right now -- you all are being so very helpful to me. That's the God's Honest.
Jeff, I have been thinking about what you said a lot (regarding gay couple in the church, “I simply cannot fathom condoning sins”). It’s how I feel too a huge amount of the time about all kinds of my fellow parishioners! [GRIN]. Here are some quick, probably disjointed, thoughts.
* Refusing to condemn doesn’t mean condoning. The model for me is Luke 7, the woman who bathes the feet of Jesus with her tears. She’s a notorious sinner. That’s what the text says. My image of her is that she’s a whore, “THAT kind of a woman” in the words of Christ’s righteous host. Now the mindblowing thing to me about the passage is that Jesus doesn’t lecture her at ALL, not the least littlest bit. I keep searching the passage for the place where Christ tells her very nicely that she needs to shape up – or where the Evangelist suggests that she later joins the young ladies Christian league – because of course my feeling is that the Lord needs to do that at some point. That woman has GOT to be brought into line. But it’s just not there. So that’s my first thought – if you totally love a gay couple and don’t try to straighten them out, it doesn’t mean by implication that you are pulling a Griswold where you are blessing what you think they are doing when they come home at night, anymore than Jesus loving the woman meant he thought prostitution was good. You aren’t condoning them being gay, just loving them.
* Sexual sin is for us an especial trigger. It’s always been that way for most Christians (though apparently not for the First Christian). We tend to zero in on sexual sin like a heat seeking missle. Because sex is hot, of course. It glows in big lurid colors. But it’s worth asking ourselves why we don’t feel as a fellow Christian quite the same sense of urgency to correct and reprove all the other sins going on. (Yeah, we say we do in theory, but that’s BS.) I mean everybody is living in sin. Everybody in a congregation has got something that they are living with and not apparently not getting fixed. We could all make a big list. Wealth is a simple one: how many of us feel quite the same urge to go lecture our wealthy contributors that they really are being wicked by living in that mansion and driving those fancy cars? These people are “living in sin” just as much as the gay couple.
* To the extend that we are focused on whether to reprove our gay brothers, we need to realize that they are in a terrible terrible bind. Straight traditionalists need to hear that. Straights need to realize how truly bound their will is in this thing. Their need for romantic love from the same sex feels to them the same way the need most straight people have feels (for the opposite sex). Straight people need to imagine the horrible aching loneliness we traditionalists so blithely prescribe for gay people – for life! It feels to them just the same as it would to one of the young men here on this web site if the church suddenly said to him: “by the way, you can’t ever kiss or hold or by held by a woman, you will never be able to have a romantic mate like all these other Christians do; every week for the rest of your life, after church and after work you get to go home to an empty apartment and read your Bible while everyone else gets to go home to their families – ps. Have a nice day!” Do you realize how lonely this is? Because finally, gay Christians are looking for life mates because they need love – their same sex orientation is ultimately not for them primarily about carnal acts, it’s about an emotive and affective need. Just like a straight man can have incredibly close male buddies but there is a kind of love that he can only get from a woman, and that is only superficially about he might do with her in bed.
All of which is not to say that you need a pull a Griswold – that by understanding the profoundly unchosen nature of their condition you need to conclude that it isn’t a part of Fallen Nature. Really listening to gay people in this regard (paging Lambeth 1998) doesn’t need to cause you to abandon traditional church teaching in this regard. But man, it should evoke some compassion! That’s the thing. Just realize how terribly lonely they are – and how unable they are to just “do the right thing” and be celibate and alone. It’s not about condoning their sin, but have compassion for the bound sinner.
And as a quick sideline, don’t get snookered into hopes that all they need to do is join a “healing ministry” and get turned straight. These are largely BS. They are largely colossal failures – sometimes ending in the failed patients killing themselves or mutilating themselves (self-castration, etc.). I am a firm believer that God can and does perform miraculous healings in this life – for example in cancer cases – but I also know that most of the time His inscrutable will is not to do so. As an American my national mythology is based on the idea that no problem exists that can’t be fixed; but as a Christian I need to face the fact that some problems can’t be fixed in this life. My biggest problem with Exodus and such is that they always implicitly confuse a gay person’s salvic relationship with Christ with being turned straight or celibate – even if the ministry were to say the opposite it’s how it comes across to 99 out of 100 participants.
* There’s an absolutely mind-blowing sermon that PZ preached several years ago (title = “Semi-Pelagianism”, 1/12/2003). I listen to it a couple times a year because that’s what I am. I am constantly sliding back into Semi-P. I’d love hearing what other people think of it. I suggest it not because there are ideas in it that’ll be new to you guys – y’all are like a million times more learned than me (never been to seminary or anything like you guys have). Anyway if it were just theological ideas it would be Teaching rather than Preaching. No, I love it because of the practical pastoral examples PZ gives in it, mostly of the bound will, and of pastoral cruelty. He gets so upset at one point that the words have difficulty coming out of him, and he says “it’s…. it’s just… p-p-p-ernicious…. and it’s cruel.” If anybody feels like giving it a listen you can find it at:
http://adventbirmingham.com/sermons.asp?pn=17&ps=10&numID=2
* By the way, Jeff, I absolutely it when you said “I too cringe when someone says, "We need to speak a little Truth with our Grace" (i.e., Here comes some condemnation for you from my flesh).” I laughed so hard I am almost shit my pants.
* After having said all that, I do think that there is some role for giving other brothers and sisters in Christ reproof and guidance vis-à-vis the Law. I mean, what do you do when a guy says he is cheating on his wife, and then asks if you think God would mind? I’m almost certain, though, that the answer has to do with what Bonnie said. You do it when it’s clear that the advice is being solicited, and also with humility as a bound sinner yourself. I share your puzzlement over this whole issue, however.
As always, thanks again.
Dear John,
I think that all you have said is both meaningful and important. I have been meditating on every word!
What would you--or anyone else, for that matter--have to say about St. Paul's condoning of sin among the Corinthians?
The Bible is a difficult book, and I give much credit to all who work so diligently to discern a systematic theology from it. The example I am cited does not seem to be reducible to a matter of description versus prescription, however.
Indeed, it seems to be the case that Paul is arguing for a normative ethic in the church.
What do we do with this?
Thanks so much, Jeff, for your kind words. Means a lot.
I too find the Bible tough! VERY tough. I also love Luther's description of it not as an object (paging Buber's I AND THOU) but as a living thing. Luther says "The Bible is ALIVE! It has hands and it lays hold of me. It has feet and runs after me." Or something like that. Isn't that amazing?
But yeah, I totally agree that there are things I find hard to understand, or to totally square with other stuff.
One thing I would say for sure though is that I am absolutely ok with the idea of a normative ethic in the church. I agree 100% with Luther (repeated again by PZ in his recent sermon on forgiveness) that there is nothing wrong with the Law. The Law is, in Luther's words, holy and right and good and true.
So I have zero problem with the church having, for example, a normative sexual ethic. I want the church to be able to have as part of its identity the idea that, say, sleeping around is not good for us. Or that (say) God's norm, the state of God's unfallen Creation, is for sexual and romantic attraction to happen between the opposite sexes. I want the church to be able to be able to declare that murder is wrong and lies are wrong and so on.
So one of the functions of the church as I see it is to be a custodian of the Law. The Law is precious and holy and good. It's a treasure of the Church. But it also does not contain within itself the ability to engender that which it commands! Which (if I am understanding them right) is the terrifying discovery made by St. Paul ("Who will deliver me?") and again by Luther.
The feeling I have come to recently is that there are two questions that are totally independent and yet which I am constantly tending to conflate. The first is: What should be normative for the church? The second is: How should the church treat rank and file members who deviate from that norm?
It seems to me that different Christian churches have answered those questions in different ways. Let's take just the issue of theological doctrine as an example. The first question boils down to: How big should our creed be? At one end of the spectrum you have churches who have incredibly detailed specifications as to what the correct doctrine is on almost every imaginable question. Rome, as I understand her, is close to that. Less restrictive but still detailed might be the Westminster Confession or the 39 Articles. (These are somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.) Somewhere at the least restictive end might be churches that are only bound by something (whether explicitly or no) is like a stripped down version of the Apostles creed. The point is that all churches, have some kind of normative identity, some kind of credo of what they believe.
A totally different question is what a church should do when one of its rank and file members is somehow deviating from that normative identity. Again I see a spectrum of responses, which I lump into three big chunks. At one end of the spectrum the response is EXPULSION / EXCOMMUNICATION (with the most extreme form being Execution, e.g. burning at the stake). The middle route is Reproof, also called the Law's Third Use, or Church Disclipline (the "third mark" of the church). This is the common sense view: don't expel them (at least right away) but be sure you "speak the truth in love" to them about how bad the specific thing they are doing is and get them fast on the right road to fixing their Badness. The extreme other end is: No Third Use, no reproof, no Tony Robbins, no cheerleading, no try, no do. This, as I understand it, was the view of the early Luther; church discipline is not a third mark of the church. (The implicit rejection of a Third Mark made its way also into the 39 Articles.) Or in the scandalous recent words of PZ, "God is in the business of giving incredible amounts of space to notorious evil-livers."
Those of us on the Lutheran end here hasten to say we aren't being antinomian! We aren't moral relativists, we do believe that the Law is holy and right and good and true. We still believe in the Law and its teachings are absolutely part of our normative identity. We just question its practical effectiveness as a means of getting people to do the right thing. We are 100% open to helping people move away from this or that aspect of their sinful lives, but we see that process as being started and led by the promptings of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life.
And I'll say one more thing about us far left Lutherans (GRIN): ultimately there is some truth to the charge that we are less strung out than others about Getting All This Sinning To Stop! Because our focus is only on the Law's theological use (making the hearer flee to Jesus and hide in His Cross) and because of how crucial the Simul Iustus is to our understanding of the Regenerate life, we tend not to be as strung out when we see visible sin continuing to exist. We REJOICE when we see an alcoholic giving up the booze or anything else; thank you Jesus! But it's gravy -- it's a glorious blessing but not the primary thing we wanted or expected.
All that said, I'd stress this is where I personally am (thus it's probably wrong!). I totally admit that a case can be made for other ways of understanding the Biblical witness. Calvin was a brilliant and godly man -- his "third use" understanding of Paul and the Bible in general may be right.
All I wanted to do right here is make sure I signed on 100% with you about the church having normative ethics. That's what I see as question #1: what should be normative, what should the church teach? It's in the second question (what should we do when a parishioner is deviating from that normative identity) that I am inclined to avoid reprooving individuals and bashing them with the Law.
One final thought, Jeff, and this is something I feel real strongly from my heart. Your original question was: how do I deal with a concrete pastoral problem of two gay men in my congregation?
The answer to me is that you don't have to lecture them about traditional church teaching on homosexuality. Cause these guys aren't dumb. They'll pick up on the fact that you are a traditional, theologically conservative Christian. There's no way they could not! And remember PZ's parish, the Cathedral in Birmingham? He never spent his time trying to fix his gay parishioners, never took them aside to explain how bad they were being. They already knew where he stood on that -- it was obvious! The mindblowing thing for a gay man in PZ's parish was to experience VISCERALLY the Simul Iustus: Paul knows I am a total sinner in this respect and he totally loves me -- I don't have to fix myself first (or as a subsequent condition).
That's actually something you can give your gay parishioners that a liberal priest CANNOT. He can't relay the experience to them of GRACE in this area of their lives, precisely because he's declared to them that their homosexuality is a wonderful thing. So when he declares "I love you just the way you are", it's cheap and meaningless -- because he's told them he LIKES the way they are. What's so impressive about loving somebody who's got all these sterling qualities? That's nice of course. It's just not grace. What they really need to experience is that which in Christian iconography is depicted with St. Francis kissing the leper. Yes, you are a diseased mess and I love you so very much and won't shy away from you. That's what you can give them.
John Stamper,
That was SO well put, I don't have a thing to add!
Well, maybe one or two.
My dad is a practicing, full-fledged, card-carrying (I don't know if they have cards or not), parading, homosexual.
And I totally love him.
He is in a long term relationship with another man, about my age, who is a really great, loving guy.
My dad knows I'm a Christian and we have actually become closer since I became a Christian.
I don't go around telling him that I approve of his lifestyle and I don't have to. He knows. But he also knows that I love him right where he is. No ifs ands or buts.
It's a wierd thing for me still, but he's my dad, and I wan't him to know the Love of Christ. And that starts with me!
Anyway, great stuff, John Stamper! Just Great!
Peace.
Just as an occasional reader, I have to say, I am TOTALLY put out with everyone who has commented here, about this article by PZ:
#1--because everyone had such interesting comments, (all of which I would like to respond to, thoughtfully, intelligently and humorously)
#2--because I am not capable of #1, being limited by my lack of intelligence, thoughtfulness and wit, and
#3--because my children wake up at 6 AM and always want me to do stuff like FIX their BREAKFAST, and BRUSH their HAIR, DRIVE them to SCHOOL, and all those other things that take my time away from reading and posting on John Camp....bummer.
john stamper, i don't know you, but you speak for me! i LOVED your lengthy post in response to jeff dean (whom i do know, and who is the man.) i feel the same way as you, almost down to the letter, but i have never been able to articulate it as well as you did. how can anyone disagree with that?! thank you.
Folks,
this discussion has born so much fruit! I'm thinking of shutting the blog down as I can't see us doing any better! But maybe I'll post a few of John Stamper's rich insights separately as they are so worthy (and, I think, important). I feel honored to be a part of what has transpired here, and want you all to know it. Plus, I hope you will be able to feel the same way in that you have all contributed so much.
Thanks and love,
John "S.I.E.P" Zahl
We can't do any better -- and coming up with stuff to blog about every day is a serious chore.
It's been a good ride, thanks for the memories.
Worthy is when you conservatives learn your hypocrisy is no different to Jesus today than it was for Him when he flayed the Saducess and Pharisees with his tongue. Love is never a sin regardless of the genders or their orientation. In fact the hardest part of being gay and Christian is having to love those who persecute us in His name. So in His name I will continue to pray for those of you judge gays and continue to malign us.
When we speak of "salvation" are we in reference to "getting in the door" or being SAVED from our sins? i.e. transformation ( that which only Christ grace can offer)
Is homosexuality based in love of God or narcissism , and are we taking an opinion poll on this or going with Paul in Romans?
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